孙迪=孙、徐晨阳=徐

　　孙：您92年毕业于南京艺术学院, 是什么样的原因让您选择去日本留学？

　　徐：我92年毕业于南京艺术学院油画专业，94年取得日本文部省的国费奖学金，去日本留学。当时的条件还是不错的，不用像其他留学生那样去上语言学校，而是直接进入一所国立大学的大学院读研究生，每月有足够生活的奖学金，不用交学费，也不用帮导师做事情。对于当时的我来说，不仅可以通过留学开阔眼界、进一步深造；另外，能够不考虑生计而专念于绘画也是很有吸引力的。

　　孙：在日本的这段时间，对您现在的创作作品要什么重要的影响？

　　徐：我在日本生活了十几年，先是留学，然后做职业画家。这段经历必然会对我现在的创作产生影响。我想大概当时所有出国留学的人，只要是真想去学习，必定会有一个如海绵般吸收的阶段，过了这段时期，其中的一部分人会去过滤，会考虑哪些对于自己是真正重要和有用的，会有所沉淀。留学期间我一方面不断调整表现风格，同时也尝试了多种绘画材料。除油画之外，先后画过坦培拉、弗莱斯戈湿壁画、岩彩画、铜版画、水印套色木刻、水墨画等，所有这些对于我今天的作品都会产生或多或少的影响。但是我觉得影响最大的还是由于离开了中国再回望的时候，逐渐感受到了中国传统艺术的博大精深。可以说我对于中国传统艺术的关注始于留学期间，当时在日本的筑波大学读油画专业的硕士，研究课题是《现代东方绘画的可能性》，从研究的角度对中国传统艺术理念展开了一些思考。这些思考改变了我对绘画艺术的认识，同时也直接导致了绘画风格和绘画方式的改变。现在的创作方式就是从那时开始的。

　　另外，日本画家与中国画家在对绘画的认识上有一些差异，日本画家注重提炼个人体验、刻意确立独特的表现样式，所以往往会在同一主题或样式上重复表现，以求极致。我同意这样的做法，尽管任何一种新的艺术都是确立于前人的艺术实践基础之上，但是，如果没有一定的原创性，不能提供某种新的艺术表现或审美体验，又如何称之为艺术创作？而没有语言上的反复推敲和锤炼就难以有表现上的到位。

　　孙：你希望给欣赏作品的人带来什么样的思考或感受？

　　徐：比如在希腊有时候会挖掘出古时候的雕塑来，任何人看到的瞬间，都会惊喜地说：这是宝物啊！我想好的艺术作品就应该是这样的。关于作品的解说再多，也会随着时间的流逝而消失，就像现在有些画家所做的作品说明，没有文字说明的话，别人就无法理解。如果很多年以后，有人在一个破旧仓库里翻出一幅我的画，看到的瞬间会不会说：“这画画得真好！”。如果是达芬奇的画一定会这么说的，如果是米开朗基罗的雕塑也一定会这样想。我希望能做出这样的东西来。看到的瞬间，被感动，觉得太厉害了。那些附加说明的作品必然会被时代所遗忘的。不用说明就能让人理解的才是绘画。

　　孙：您的画面中一直有出现女人与花？他们有什么特殊的含义吗？您想通过这样的画面来表达什么？

　　徐：直观地对画中出现的形象进行解释，可能反而会产生歧义。并且不同画面中出现的形象其含义往往会有差异。在很多时候画面中的人物是女性还是男性并不重要，我需要的是一个能够承担情绪外化的载体。而画成女性有其方便之处，比如可以配以各种服饰而不显奇怪，头部的造型也因发型而有更多的变化。当然，还有一点，就是女性总是有着一些令我捉摸不透的神秘。而花的形象带有更多的情绪化，复杂的造型和纯粹的色彩使其充满隐喻，一次绽放就是一个瞬间的生灭，一个顿悟。

　　我是个理想主义者，在绘画中始终有唯美的倾向。但是仅仅有美是不够的。比如画面中女性的脸，我想画那种美但同时又要能令人震撼、体现出内心复杂情感、有深意的脸。象观音那样的面容，是美的还是不美的，很微妙，但是肯定是有一种令人震撼的东西。那种无法揣摩她在想什么的感觉，有那么一点神秘可怕，让人不由地去想人到底是怎样的一种存在。同时，又能体现出人性的力量：安详、宽和、内敛、优雅。这样的一种脸是我想画的。这些方面也是我想通过绘画传达的精神内核。

　　孙：您的画面上是斑斑驳驳的那种感觉，脱离了传统的油画表现形式？为什么会选择这样的表现形式？

　　徐：我希望自己的作品就是绘画，而并不现限定于油画这一画种。画面上不仅使用了油画的材料，也有水性材料的使用。目前采用的绘画手法某种意义上也是对既定的油画技法的消减。对我来说，相对于西方油画技法的表层横向覆盖，中国传统绘画色透纸背的纵向渗透和渲染有着更多的亲近感。我的画是在有肌理的画面上通过多次的颜料堆积使上层的颜色与下面残存的颜色交混，以获得纵向渗入和斑驳的岩壁画的效果。另外，粗糙如岩壁的画面肌理，也可以给作品制作强加一种限制，迫使我放弃一些诱人的绘画元素，比如物体的质感、微妙的光影变化、精巧的细节描绘、令人玩味的笔触等等，从而让自己更多地关注于画面的精神性、颜料的质感、色彩的意味以及形的简约和力度。

　　Sophie Sun=Sophie, Xu Chenyang=Xu

　　Sophie: You graduated from Nanjing Arts Institute. What is the reason that made you choose to study in Japan?

　　Xu: I graduated from Oil Painting Department of Nanjing Institute of Fine Arts in 1992, got the National Scholarship from MEXT and went to Japan in 1994. My living condition at that time was quite good while attending the National University, no need to go for a language school like other overseas students, enough scholarship for daily living, no worry over tuition fee, and no need to work for my mentor. For me, that was really an opportunity to broaden my outlook, pursue further study abroad, and focus on learning the painting without worrying about livelihood.

　　Sophie: For the length of time you had stayed in Japan, what were the important effects over your creations nowadays?

　　Xu: I lived in Japan for more than ten years, first to study, then been a occupational painter. These had certainly had an impact over my creations. I think most overseas students staying there at that time must have had a moment eager to learn anything & everything, but after that period of time, some would reconsider and evaluate what are really more important and useful to them. I adjusted my style of expression continually, and tried with as many materials for painting as I can beside oil painting, such as Tempera, rock painting, copperplate etching, watermark color process wood carving, ink painting, etc., all that I believe have had an impact over my paintings to some extent. But most importantly is when I looked back after I left, and began to feel how profound the Chinese traditional arts are. I started to pay special attention to Chinese traditional art during my study of Oil Painting MFA in Tsukuba University, the research topic was 《The Feasibility of Modern Oriental Painting》, to develop further thinking over Chinese traditional art from a research standpoint. These thinkings changed my understanding of art painting, and change of my style or ways of painting. I think my style has taken its shape at that time.

　　In addition, there are differences between how Japanese painters and Chinese painters understand the art of painting. Japanese pay more attention to refining personal expression, they deliberately establish a unique style, and would repeat on the same theme or style until perfection. I agreed to that only to the extent that all new arts are built on the foundation set by its predecessors, but without originality, without deliberate repeats of language & temper, we will not be able to put new art performance or appreciation in place, and how can that be called artistic creation?

　　Sophie: What kind of thinking or feeling do you hope to bring out from people who look at your works?

　　Xu: For example in Greece, whenever ancient sculptures are unearthed, people who saw them would be pleasantly surprised and said, “such a treasure!” I think a good piece of art should be like that. The description you give to a piece of art work will be lost with time sooner or later. Some artists now would give their works a text descriptive, but when there’s none no one can understand. I wonder if someone found one of my works years later from a depilated warehouse, would they say, “such a good painting!” I am sure it will be If it’s a Da Vinci, or Michelangelo. That’s how I hope mine would be. Impressed the moment you saw it, that would so incredible. A true art work is one that needs no description, those that have one will definitely be lost in time.

　　Sophie: There are always women and flowers on your canvas, are there any meaning to that? What do you want to express through these paintings?

　　Xu: If one tries to intuitively explain the object on canvas, that might easily cause more misunderstanding. The objects on different canvas would have different implication. Whether the object on canvas is female or male is not important, what I need is a carrier that can undertake mood externalization. With female I can easily do it with a change in clothing or hairdo. Of course, there’s always something mysterious in women that I cannot understand. With flowers there are even more emotions, full of metaphors, complexity, and pure color, to bloom is to be in a time of birth & death, for an insight.

　　I am an idealist, showing the most aesthetic on my canvas is still not enough. Like the face of a woman, not only her beauty, but I also want to bring out her inner self, the complexity & depth of her feelings, on her face. Like the face of the Goddess of Mercy, beautiful or not, so subtle, there’s something amazing about it, you cannot figure what she is thinking, there’s a little canniness, and that let us ponder what kind of existence are men in. Also reflect on the power of human nature : serenity, tolerance, restraint, elegance. That’s a face I want to paint, the spiritual essence I want to express through my painting.

　　Sophie: The mottled spots on your canvas, are detached from the traditional oil painting style, why you have chosen this style of expression?

　　Xu: Mine are paintings but not limited to just oil paintings. There are other materials, like water-based ones, the method used in a sense is trying to be apart from the established technique. For me, relative to the Western oil painting techniques for horizontal coverage, the vertical penetration in Chinese tradition painting renders a more intimate feel on paper. Mine is for texture by a number of pigment accumulation on top mixing with remnants of color below, in order to obtain the effect of vertical infiltration and mottled rock murals. In addition, the rough, rock texture surface impose a limit on my work, forcing me to give up some of the more attractive elements, such as object texture, light diversification, elaborate details, fascinating strokes, etc., and this way I pay more attention to the spirit of the surface, the texture and implication of the color, to achieve simplicity and intensity.